Can we make a difference?

[D_Raay]

I hear you, and I feel your pain. I get so frustrated sometimes and I wonder if there's anyone else who feels the way I do. I look around at my friends and see that they're good people, but I wonder if they feel the way I do. Are they as fed up as I am? Does it all seem crazy to them too? Or is it just me? Did anyone else hear what Bush just said? Do they take any of this seriously? I know they mean well and have good intentions. They also have other things to worry about. We all have pretty busy lives it seems. And believe me, I would much rather be doing something else than dealing with this bullshit, but it's right there in my face and it not going away. Not only that-it's getting worse. I don't think enough people realize that. "Where does it stop?".... "When will you act?" I wonder. "What will it take?" Does it have to be knocking on your door before you do something?

Should I just look on the bright side of it? It's not so bad, right? I mean, what is Bush and his evil team of bastards doing to ME personally? Is anything different about MY life? I go about my daily life unimpeded, so do most people. At the same time people are complaining all the time about our lack of freedoms and the steady loss of those freedoms. In many ways I AM free.....which is ironic, because in a very real way we ARE NOT free....sometimes not even free to say what we want. The secret police aren't banging on MY door right now....maybe someone else, but not ME....and that's what counts, right? Maybe it's not so bad after all. What are all those other people complaining about? Aren't they living in one of the most prosperous nations in the world? Shouldn't they feel rather fortunate to have been born where they were? Is it ungrateful to think otherwise? Am I really just looking for the splinter in someone else's eye while overlooking the enormous thorny branch stuck in my own eye? Isn't complaining a negative or defeatist way of looking at things?

I see other people who are ignorant or unconcerned with these matters and they seem happier...like there's just that much less weight on their shoulders. I think ignorance truly is bliss.....for a while. I talk to people around me--in plain terms-about our government and what it's doing to us and to others, and I notice that most don't really care. More than that, they don't really know much about what's going on. Again, they seem to be mostly unconcerned....and it suits them just fine. Not knowing seems to be better in almost every way. If you don't know what's being done to you, then you're not likely to object or cause a fuss. It reminds me of the Matrix. Maybe that's what they're going for-the people doing this to us, that is. Maybe I should just mind my own business and focus on my job and my family and what's on tv tonight. Maybe none of this is my business. That's why we have elected officials, right? To think about al of this stuff for us. That's what they're there for. They wouldn't do us wrong would they? Why? We put them there, right? They work for US, right? We can always boot them out of office if we don't like it. They would tell us if we had something to worry about, right? Why wouldn't they? They know what's best don't they? Isn't that why we put them there? These are the things that go through my mind sometimes, and, I'll admit, I revisit my thoughts and opinions all the time to see if I still believe what I used to. Sometimes I wonder who's right and who's wrong. Am I above being tricked or fooled by someone? If there is something bad going on, maybe it's better not to know, because, what am I going to do about it anyway? What can I do? I'm just one person.

But I don't have the luxury they do: of not knowing what lurks beyond the veil of utter nothingness that they know. I DO know. I see. I hear and I experience reality. And what I see is our country falling apart before my eyes. I see greed and the hunger for more and a lackluster will to do unyeilding evil to obtain it. I see lies and corruption that dishonor our once-noble establishment and swindle our loyal citizens out of their American dream. And I see it going on every damn day!
It's the taking and the lying that get to me the most. Why must they always lie to us? Why must they always keep taking? It's insatiable it seems. Why do this? Why like THIS? Who does this benefit? Then I remember who it benefits. People are becoming rich while others are made to suffer and be poor. Most everything that goes on in this country is going on because it makes somebody some money. Even the misery--the misery makes people rich. It just depends what side of the equation you're on. War and devestation are making somebody a profit. Taking is profitable. It's that same old thug mentality: don't buy it, take it. Don't ask if can do it, just do it. Taking is easier. That's why it happens. That's why we're in the situation we're in.
So what do you do about it?
That is the question.

I find myself wanting to do something about it, but not knowing what would be the best use of my time and energy. Not to be pessimistic, but protests get us almost nowhere. I saw millions of people take to the streets worldwide and what did that change?We still have that bastard and his whole crooked cabal running our lives, taking the future of our country down the drain. Writing letters to doesn't always seems to do much either. I spend so much time reading and writing and educating myself in order to make a difference, but what does it all mean? Sure, I might get a few responses, but how serious are these people about what they're saying? Are they willing to put their money where their mouth is? Could they be counted on to take action? What about when the chips are down, will they fold? I don't mean to be rude, but how do I know the people responding aren't just full of talk. Sitting around bitching and moaning ceratinly doesn't get me anywhere. Talk is cheap. Some say the best way to change it is from within. So, what does that mean? I need to move to Washington DC? Run for office? I don't think that's a very realistic way to go. But what then? it seems like organizing people would be a good way to go, but what can I do by myself? I'm only one person, and I have a hard time changing the mind of anyone around me. What could I possibly do to affect any of this? If there really is some gigantic well-funded effort to create a New World Order, what could I do to stop it? I'm only one person.

Then I remember that Ghandi was just one person, Martin Luther King Jr. was one person, Malcolm Shabazz was only one person, John Lennon, Bob Marley, Che Gueverra, Caesar Chavez, were each just one person. I, too, am just one person, but one person who would give their life to see all of this bullshit go away. Look at what each of these individuals was able to do on their own. Each of them has had an amazing impact on the lives around them. Maybe you can too. Maybe you are just as amazing when you put your mind and heart and soul into it. How do you know unless you try? I'm sure most--if not all--of these people never knew what they could do until they tried. How will you ever know what you could accomplish if you don't try? Instead of wondering, why not do? Instead of talking about it, why not do it? Take it one step further and get involved. Don't just talk about it, be about it. Something you should remember is that it isn't just about you, it's about all of us. If not for yourself then do it for those you love; do it for your friends and family; do it for those who cannot do it for themselves. Your future, and the future of those yet to come, depends on it.

[catatonic]

I spazzed out myself tonight about this. Look what we have in common. Sorry it's just me responding to your thread and gunking it up.

Thank you for not hating other people. That never helps.

I was frustrated that Mormons wouldn't carpool more to get to some party and frankly I made an arrogant, pompous, or whatever spectacle of myself talking to just a few people about it. I got off the phone with my mom about it. She said it's important to worry about yourself more, although I do seem to get by. It is indeed important to spend enough time with yourself. You know Jesus spent a large percentage of his time alone or with friends. For you I would say to also spend time with your family. I'm sure you do these things but it's helpful to keep a perspective. She also said not to judge other people, because you never know what people are doing to help the world. Someone might be reading to a child and somebody might be helping her grandmother. I think there's a lot of good in not judging other people, which is unfortunately what I did. You know there's been a whole monstrous load of progress made to try to make life better in our lifetime. Republicans seem genuinely concerned about the energy bill. They want to take us off oil, that's my impression. They've voted for ammendments that would take us more off of oil. Democrats are also cooperating as much they can to get a good bill passed.

I would guess that there always have been tyrants and false priests. There can be oppressive militaries too. I shouldn't name names. I won't judge anybody as being them. I think people's lack of concern is sometimes an expression of innocence that is very charming since it means they wouldn't be like that. It's just our problem that the bad people get bought.

There's nothing much we can do about it, we shouldn't judge, except do the best to be obedient to the truth and teach people if we get an opportunity. Christianity was indeed concerned about elitist devils, although I wish the lowly peasants would think harder.
I haven't had much success with my economic liberal side in influencing people, but on my social conservative side I may have helped pull an ad from Air America on gay marriage, just by talking on the phone with a very important person. Keep at it. You'd be awesome at perspectives.com and win over a lot of voters. Remember, people sometimes just might not be as smart as you, or smarter in other areas. You're a very articulate, smart guy.

Also, I believe there's a scripture that says in effect, "Why are your leaders so bad? What have they done to you?" It's in Isaiah, which knows a lot about our time.

[catatonic]

Let's start by thinking of things we're grateful for.

I'm so grateful Bolton got rejected today. 54 votes wasn't even close. I'm grateful for the energy bill. I'm grateful for preserving checks and balances in the Senate with the filibuster compromise. I'm grateful that in the House the official showed some remorse after unfairly rejecting two drug bills by Bart Stupak that I had gotten my Republican representative to say he would go along with, in Utah! The bills were never reintroduced. I'm truly grateful there's no gay marriage in this country although I'm sad that families with straight parents are breaking up. I'm grateful for the parental notification act for abortions. I'm grateful for so many charities. I'm grateful that I have to go to bed so I don't need to keep thinking about things.

What are some of the things you're grateful for?

[D_Raay]

How can I be grateful?

Just something I've been milling around in my head trying to think of something to be grateful for...
There are stories of coincidence and chance, of intersections and strange things told, and which is which and nobody knows; and we generally say, 'Well, if that was in a movie, I wouldn't believe it.'
A lot of strange things fall out of America's skies. Why some do is not so strange.

The small plane of Gary Caradori, returning to Nebraska with photographic evidence of an elite paedophile ring run out of the Franklin Credit Union.

The United Airlines jet carrying the wife of Watergate spook E Howard Hunt, as well as thousands of dollars in hush money, who had been threatening to "tell all." (Hunt immediately dropped his extortion of the White House and agreed to plead guilty.)

Paul Wellstone's King Air A100, during an election to decide control of the Senate, after having been the only Senator standing for election to challenge Cheney's war resolution, and just before his name would have been left on the ballot in the event of his death.

The company plane of Jake Horton, Vice President of Gulf Power, which exploded midair as he was en route to confront his Board over dubious accounting and illegal political payoffs. (According to Greg Palast, police received an anonymous call later that day: "You can stop investigating Gulf Power now.")

I'm just feeling like a frog who was minding his own business in a pond, until suddenly, the bottom dropped out.

Look out below.

[catatonic]

Be grateful to God that there are people who get stopped for these things. The tyco CEO and the Worldcom CEO both got prison if I'm not mistaken. I think some of these smaller problems, the people are getting a chance to apologize and make restitution on their own. The big ones, with patience, go under. Look at George Bush. He's maybe punished with a 42% approval rating and maybe more in the future. I'm sure I'll be punished for the things I said last night I was telling you about.

Be grateful for some good in this world. But whatever the case, don't be angry as that never helps.

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by catatonic

He's maybe punished with a 42% approval rating and maybe more in the future.

I'm sure that is a deterrant. Get hundreds of thousands of people killed, make billions of dollars nefariously, and the penalty? Just under half of the people you might run into will like you.

I know that would make me think twice about criminal acts.

[catatonic]

I firmly believe that if he has done wrong he will be punished unless he repents. Mark my words.

[yeahwho]

The spirit of the Constitution and the men who wrote it is being snuffed out in plain daylight.

Abuse of Power can and should certainly be considered a high crime.

At some point incompetence itself ceases to be a defense and becomes a charge of misconduct within itself.

The cracks are beginning to show in this administration, all of the kings men and women will not be able to put it back together, the sad part is, millions of us did not want to go on this ride.

D_Raay has made a difference just by communicating via this forum; Using it to point out what he see's as injustice, using freedom to keep freedom.

[catatonic]

When it comes to making a difference, a lot of people think they have to convert 100 people to make a difference. Not so, if you convert one person you are per person doubling your base.

[SobaViolence]

i'm grateful i live in Canada and we have started to realized that civil unions (government, not church) of homosexuals is one of the last steps towards equality.

we can show americans how to get along with the rest of the world and we can show the rest of them how to coexist and get along with the usa.

i'm grateful that there is very little partisanship in Canada. that somehow north of the 49th, we can get over ourselves a little better and agree with others.

i'm grateful for David Suzuki. The greatest defender of Mother Earth.


and i'm grateful i exist.

[Funkaloyd]

Originally Posted by Catatonic

I firmly believe that if he has done wrong he will be punished unless he repents.

That might be of consolation to some people, but I think that stopping him now is much more important that any possible future punishment he'll recieve in either this world or Helgardh.

...So I fail to share your optomism.

[Ali]

Originally Posted by catatonic

When it comes to making a difference, a lot of people think they have to convert 100 people to make a difference. Not so, if you convert one person you are per person doubling your base.

What do you mean 'convert'?

[catatonic]

convert: get to share your persuasion

[guerillaGardner]

Yes we can make a difference because our methods are becoming more sophisticated. It used to be a simple matter of shouting at people in power to change things, regardless of how and why we got into the position we are in and what will happen when we change it.

More and more stuff is slipping into the mainstream such as recycling, fair trade, organic food, box schemes, farmers markets and debt relief as well as stances against the G8 and the war-like tendencies of our governments.

Campaigners are becoming stock and share holders in corrupt corporations in order to exert influence. In short the way we attack these issues is becoming more and more creative and there is a lot that we take for granted that wouldn't be happening but for these campaigns.

The level of educationn is rising on the causes of society's troubles - poor diet causing poor health and anti-social behaviour. There's a strong trend at the moment for TV shows on how to bring up well behaved children. What changes in society will we see in ten years because of these things?

There's a constant movement towards making things better. The tipping point is coming soon.

[guerillaGardner]

I'd like to add my idea of what will make the world better.

It's self sufficiency.

Make people self sufficient at all levels - personal, local, national, international and we'll see things change.

Corporations will no longer have the power that they currently abuse. People in the third world will get land back to grow their staple foods rather than luxuries like sugar, chocolate, coffee, bananas and cut flowers for us.

Sustainably harvest all resources at a local level - biogas, wind, wave, sun, passive solar - before going off to war to steal it off of someone else.

With less movement of goods around the world we require less oil, less pollution, less waste and less sweatshop and child labour.

Producing our own food we'd naturally make it more organic, fresher and healthier with less additives and stimulants - so better physical and mental health.

I could go on, but I'm out of time but if people were self sufficient they'd be happier as it's mostly money and shitty paid jobs that make people unhappy.

[D_Raay]

Originally Posted by guerillaGardner

I'd like to add my idea of what will make the world better.

It's self sufficiency.

Make people self sufficient at all levels - personal, local, national, international and we'll see things change.

Corporations will no longer have the power that they currently abuse. People in the third world will get land back to grow their staple foods rather than luxuries like sugar, chocolate, coffee, bananas and cut flowers for us.

Sustainably harvest all resources at a local level - biogas, wind, wave, sun, passive solar - before going off to war to steal it off of someone else.

With less movement of goods around the world we require less oil, less pollution, less waste and less sweatshop and child labour.

Producing our own food we'd naturally make it more organic, fresher and healthier with less additives and stimulants - so better physical and mental health.

I could go on, but I'm out of time but if people were self sufficient they'd be happier as it's mostly money and shitty paid jobs that make people unhappy.

You realize of course that there are quite a few fat cats and wealthy whelps that are going to their best to see that what you suggest never happens?

They like the way it is going... Just a flock of sheeple consuming like the arrogant pigs we are. Something needs to happen to push us over the top and to finally get a ration of satisfaction. I sense it brewing with this administration. That much you are right about...

[Nuzzolese]

In trying to look to past examples of a people's revolution overthrowing the dominant power system, it often seems like there was an outside hand to interfere in elections and financially support the small groups, there was someone with money with their own agenda getting involved. What does that mean? Does that mean you cannot separate democracy from money? You cannot convince people without finances for security?

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by Nuzzolese

it often seems like there was an outside hand to interfere in elections and financially support the small groups

Who did that in the great communist revolutions? IIRC the closest Lenin got to outside help was various countries permitting him to go back to russia in a sealed train.

[Nuzzolese]

Originally Posted by Ace42

Who did that in the great communist revolutions? IIRC the closest Lenin got to outside help was various countries permitting him to go back to russia in a sealed train.

I have no idea. I was thinking of the Ukraine. Nevermind I don't know enough about it to add anything of relevance. Sorry just ignore!

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by Nuzzolese

I have no idea. I was thinking of the Ukraine. Nevermind I don't know enough about it to add anything of relevance. Sorry just ignore!

No, there a re certainly examples that support your case. For example the USSR propping up revolutions, notoriously Vietnam.

[Ali]

Originally Posted by guerillaGardner

I'd like to add my idea of what will make the world better.

It's self sufficiency.

Make people self sufficient at all levels - personal, local, national, international and we'll see things change.

Corporations will no longer have the power that they currently abuse. People in the third world will get land back to grow their staple foods rather than luxuries like sugar, chocolate, coffee, bananas and cut flowers for us.

Sustainably harvest all resources at a local level - biogas, wind, wave, sun, passive solar - before going off to war to steal it off of someone else.

With less movement of goods around the world we require less oil, less pollution, less waste and less sweatshop and child labour.

Producing our own food we'd naturally make it more organic, fresher and healthier with less additives and stimulants - so better physical and mental health.

I could go on, but I'm out of time but if people were self sufficient they'd be happier as it's mostly money and shitty paid jobs that make people unhappy.

A corporation made the computer you typed that on, another made the electricity to run it, another made the software, another keeps the Internet running.

Face it. Without the economic system and the corporations which are causing so much misery, you would be scratching your message in the soil with a stick, wearing animal skins, suffering from cold, hunger and disease.

You can be self-sufficient and organic, but you cannot be free of the socioeconomic system which produced you.

You can be free within it.

Here's how.

[D_Raay]

Originally Posted by Ali

A corporation made the computer you typed that on, another made the electricity to run it, another made the software, another keeps the Internet running.

Face it. Without the economic system and the corporations which are causing so much misery, you would be scratching your message in the soil with a stick, wearing animal skins, suffering from cold, hunger and disease.

You can be self-sufficient and organic, but you cannot be free of the socioeconomic system which produced you.

You can be free within it.

Here's how.

Poppycock... "People" run these corporations that you speak of right?
The trick is to get them to act like people.

[Ali]

What the hell are you doing up at this hour? It's, like, 3am

Are you saying that we don't need the corporations?

Of course we do! The thing we don't need to be is entirely dependant on them. We don't need to buy everything they try to sell us. We can grow our own food, ride bicycles, generate our own power, but my point is that we have to do this within the larger socioeconomic framework we find ourselves in.

We have to accept that we are a part of the problem before we can change it.

[Ace42]

Face it. Without the economic system and the corporations which are causing so much misery, you would be scratching your message in the soil with a stick, wearing animal skins, suffering from cold, hunger and disease.

Unless you lived in a communist state.

[Ali]

Originally Posted by Ace42

Unless you lived in a communist state.

Which has it's own problems, i.e it's an utopian ideal which cannot exist in the real world, mainly because the existing system will not allow it - hence the requirement for bloody revolution and the unfortunate truth that whoever topples the last ruler invariably becomes as bad as they were. States never get past Socialist, because very large groups of people do need to be ruled and do need some sort of economic system to help hold the whole thing together.

A Communist 'State' can't exist, but communism can and does work on a local level. 'Communitivism' is probably a better, less loaded term and means 'working together towards a common goal'. People in rural communities do tend to pull together and help one another out, especially when the going gets tough. This doesn't happen much in cities, although neighbourhoods do sometimes act 'communitivistically'. Instead of demanding payment for services, one member of a community may do something for another, as a favour. This favour is returned as and when another community member needs something to be done, it might be the same one who did the favour in the first place, it might not. It's all here.

We can't live by absolutes, we need corporations and stock markets and power stations and factories and all that, but we don't need to need them so much, do we?